NFL 2004 Season Wildcard Weekend Picks

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/06/2005 @ 01:47:42 PM
i must say, there was heavy use of the phrase "backing into the playoffs" after last years situation with the Packers, but I don't like the idea even if it might apply to the Vikings. I have confidence in the Packers. But at this point, I am actually more confident in their abilities indoors than I am outside where toughness is key. This does not apply to the game against the Vikings, but this means if the Packers win, I am very confident in their ability to win in Atlanta.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Pie Racist 01/06/2005 @ 06:00:27 PM
Yeah but last year the Vikings were in first place for litterally every second of the season, it was a bizzre, and much different, situation. I've said it this year about the Vikings too. However when you think about the fact that in week 16 they were playing for the division and the #3 seed it is kind of silly to say they "backed in".		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Sarah - 4671 Posts 01/06/2005 @ 06:51:38 PM
I wish I could say Matt's comments never get old, but I can't.		Rate this comment Yours: Total: Rated 1 times.

	Scott - If you aren't enough without it, you'll never be enough with it. 01/06/2005 @ 07:16:53 PM
The point I was trying to make is that no matter what the situation really, the term is pointless. In any situation, as long as you win enough games to make the playoffs, you make the playoffs. Enough talk of this. William Henderson is an all-pro. It's about time. I think he's deserved about 3 of these, but I'm happy and I'm proud of him. I do think a few of the packer o linemen got snubbed in not even being close in votes. What are you gonna do. St. Louis, Jets, Indy, Packers		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - Ignorance is bliss to those uneducated 01/06/2005 @ 10:28:21 PM
Stephen Jackson ran for 29 yards on 10 carries last week. In fact the Rams had a total of 47 rushing yards on 19 carries. And if you don't count the scrimmage against the Eagles JV team, Jackson has 29 yards in the Rams last 3 games. He is really "clicking". I'll take the Seahawks at home and looking to make up for their letdown last time St Louis was in town. The Jets beat the Chargers in San Diego in week 2. A repeat this week? I think not. The main reason the Jets won that game was because they forced 3 turnovers and gave up none of their own, and part of the reason for that was Brees was playing with a concussion. A clear-minded Brees, a running back who is actually "clicking", and the NFL's 3rd ranked rush defense will lead the SuperChargers to a win this Saturday. The Indianapolis Peyton Manning's will destroy the Denver Broncos. Actually it could be close if Plummer has a good game. Indy has the NFL's second worst pass defense in terms of yards. The problem for the Broncos is Indy is 9th in picks, 3rd in sacks, and they have some super-fast pass rushers who will be able to track down the Scrambling Snake. No chance. And then there's the game. The third matchup this season, the first ever playoff meeting. Current weather.com forecast says right around 30 and mostly cloudy. Advantage? That's right, fans attending the game. These two teams are very comparable, it's no surprise that the two meetings were decided by a total of 6 points. Grade A passing games, decent rushing attacks, no rush defense, no pass defense, no tackling skills, and ho-hum special teams. I expect the same thing this time as the last two. Biggest question for me? Will the Vikings be mentally prepared? As we all know, "90 percent of the game is half mental." Different sport, yes, but still there physical talents should have resulted in more than 8 wins. As too who wins the game, I'll remind you how the first two were won. Ryan Longwell field goals. Cold weather, solid kicker in his prime with a long of 53 who's 8 of 11 from 40+ or 44 year old with a long of 48 who's 4 of 6 from 40+? GB by 3.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - 3619 Posts 01/06/2005 @ 10:48:45 PM
As discussions of who should be All-Pro or had the better season or breakdowns of matchups continue around the world, it annoys me to no end that people place any emphasis whatsoever or conference statistics. I don't care if some team had the 5th best offense in their conference, tell me where they stood in the NFL. This isn't baseball where each team plays a couple of interleague games and then each team in its own league at least oh I don't know for sure I think 6 or so times is about minimum. In the NFL, teams don't even play every other team in their conference. I just think using NFL rankings provides a better overall comparison than conference statistics. I'd try and do some mathematical mumbo jumbo but that would be too much work, and I graduated so I don't use math anymore.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Matt - Ombudsman 01/07/2005 @ 11:50:04 AM
Sportsman of the Year Doug Mientkiewicz isn't acting very sportsman like. Sox 1B won't give up ball caught for last Series out		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - Who controls the past now controls the future 01/07/2005 @ 01:00:31 PM
Quote of the day: "And how can you possibly make a case for wild-card opponents Green Bay and Minnesota when each plays worse pass defense than a floozie in a bar?" - Skip Bayless		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jon - 3443 Posts 01/07/2005 @ 01:51:50 PM
The Rams offense is clicking, not Jackson specifically. A close inspection of my comment will show that that was the message. Also, in each of the last two games, Jackson averaged more yards per carry than Faulk did, so yes I think my statement was perfectly valid and quite accurate also.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - If you aren't enough without it, you'll never be enough with it. 01/07/2005 @ 02:43:36 PM
valeed		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Micah - I didn't make that! It fell out of your hair that way! 01/07/2005 @ 04:40:08 PM
Quality News Reporting of the Day The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal has a front page, above the fold, 2-page article on Brett Favres advantage in hand size in the upcoming game. The writing is fantastic and I suggest you all check it out. Daunte Culpepper....very small hands. George Bush John Kerry Bill Clinton Packers Vikings lucky democrats republcians		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Sarah - How do you use these things? 01/07/2005 @ 05:47:34 PM
Oh that Dougie		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - You're going to have to call your hardware guy. It's not a software issue. 01/07/2005 @ 06:46:22 PM
well it's good to see that sports writers aren't running out of things to write about.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - But let history remember, that as free men, we chose to make it so! 01/07/2005 @ 10:12:32 PM
The fact that Faulk is having the worst (maybe second worst, 96 wasn't so good either) season of his career means that Jackson is not doing anything special by averaging more yards per carry than Faulk. The stats for the Eagles game are in the books, so I guess you can make your statement and convince yourself by looking at them, but I for one place a big fat * next to those stats since the Eagles didn't really care or try. I'm not saying the Rams offense is playing badly, just that Jackson doesn't deserve much credit for Bulger throwing for 450 yards and 3 TDs last week in a game they won by 3 points after the Jets missed a game-winning field goal in OT.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - Get Up! Get outta here! Gone! 01/07/2005 @ 10:31:51 PM
but Faulk played in that game and did a lot worse than Jackson. Jackson averaged almost twice as many yards in that game. If faulk had not played at all then that would be different, but he did and got stopped by a team that apparently wasn't trying. I still support jon's claim.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - I don't need to get steady I know just how I feel 01/07/2005 @ 10:45:41 PM
Maybe I just don't understand the claim. Is it that Jackson is doing better than Faulk? I would agree with that. I wouldn't credit Jackson with much else though. He didn't even play in 2 of their last 4 games. He has 2 games with 65 yards or more. If the Rams are going to win it will take another 400+ yard game from Bulger. And if anyone thinks that the Eagles, as a team and organization on the whole, tried to win in their last 2 games, I suggest you seek professional help as soon as possible.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jon - 1 bajillion posts 01/08/2005 @ 05:01:28 AM
The claim is that the Rams offense is doing well and especially so now that Jackson has a significant role in the offense. He brings a lot of talent to the table. I don't care what defense they play. Oh and I said that Jackson was the best running back to ever play and will singlehandedly beat the seahawks and all remaining playoff teams.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/08/2005 @ 09:39:01 AM
wait, Jon....I don't think that's what you said.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - Resident Tech Support 01/08/2005 @ 11:41:14 AM
get this.... The Mike Holmgren Packers were 5-9 against the Vikings. The Mike Sherman Packers are 7-3 against the Vikings. Interesting, considering most people will say that Mike Holmgren was the better coach. And if the Packers win, this will be the first 4 game winning streak for either team in the series since 1992-93 when the Vikings beat the Packers 4 games in a row. There's a lot at stake in this game.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - You're going to have to call your hardware guy. It's not a software issue. 01/08/2005 @ 11:45:32 AM
oh, and I've used the term "backing into something" on teams that I've played on before, youth hockey and such. It kinda made sense to me then, I think it has to do with momentum. If you are winning games at the end of the season, that means your team is clicking and playing well. If your team loses games at the end of the season and gets into the playoffs because other teams lose as well, it doesn't take away from the fact that that team made the playoffs, but there may be a reason why that team was losing at the end of the season. The Packers are also the 2nd hottest team in the league, behind only the Pittsburgh Steelers.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - Get Up! Get outta here! Gone! 01/08/2005 @ 07:06:08 PM
talk about an evenly matched game. Too bad Seattle had 90 yards of penalties. I didn't see the game on tv however, I watched the last 8:00 over the internet, with the refresh button. Pretty thrilling		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/08/2005 @ 08:46:28 PM
what, people graduate and suddenly they have lives or something? Who'da thought that the first Vikings-Packers playoff game in history would only yield 20-some pregame comments?		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Super Chocolate Bear 01/08/2005 @ 09:42:53 PM
I think we've said everything there is to say, and nobody is in a position to be cocky about anything. That and we're all apprehensive about it. The way I've been harrassed after a normal sweep I don't want to think about what will happen if there is a third, and I think on the other side they are thinking the first 2 don't matter if the Vikes get this one. I think everyone will be collectively holding thier breath until about 7ish tomorrow.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 1.21 Gigawatts!?!? 01/08/2005 @ 09:47:10 PM
As for the Holmgren/Sherman thing have the Vikes even had a winning season, outside of last year, since he's been the coach?		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - On your mark...get set...Terrible! 01/08/2005 @ 10:22:38 PM
how about the end of that chargers game. What do you think about that roughing the passer call to extend the chargers drive on 4th down? i think it was a good call.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Matt - Ombudsman 01/08/2005 @ 10:44:31 PM
It was a good call		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/08/2005 @ 10:58:16 PM
Nate makes the FG and that is the BFR heard round the world. Now we'll see if it still is or if it's forgotten about in a week. I don't like calls changing the game so drastically, but there was no reason to take him down...but damn.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Cube Phenomenoligist 01/08/2005 @ 11:01:52 PM
To clarify I meant I dont like calls on things that dont really affect the game to effect the game...if that makes any sense.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - Resident Tech Support 01/09/2005 @ 12:23:58 AM
but did you not see the obvious blow to the head? If someone doesn't want to have a call affect the game, don't cheapshot the QB. That call is a MUST call. That could have been the last play of the Super Bowl, that is the definition of the call and absolutely has to be called. A good call is a good call.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jon - 1 bajillion posts 01/09/2005 @ 03:14:01 AM
Sunday's Viking Packer game should be referred to as the Minnesota vs. Green Bay game brought to you by Herman Edwards and the Jets coaching staff. Let me explain. To harp on something that I know Jeremy and I feel strongly about (and I'm not quite sure how Matt and Sarah feel about it, so I won't implicate them either way), it all comes down to going for two after a touchdown. In week 17, the Jets scored a touchdown to go up 26-21 with 1:12 to go in the THIRD quarter. Instead of going for one to put them up by six, they went for two. And missed. St. Louis then scored a touchdown, went for two, made it, and the Jets needed a field goal to tie. Now, lets look at what may have happened if the Jets went for one rather than two. To do this, we'll assume a few things, which sometimes can be pretty dangerous, although in this case I don't think it's too implausible. If New York kicks the extra point, they go ahead by six. Now when the Rams score the touchdown with about five minutes to go in the game, they would tie. I'd assume they would then go for one, since a two point advantage wouldn't be worth the risk. The Jets would then kick the field goal to win the game as time runs out rather than to put it into overtime. Now obviously all these things aren't completely independent and maybe the play calls would have been different, blah blah, blah. But the scenario I presented probably wouldn't have changed the St. Louis play calling or time management strategy much. Obviously what if's are basically inherently flawed, but I don't think it's a big stretch by any means if you come to grips with that. Also, the thing about "presented by Herman Edwards, etc." really isn't accurate because it was only one of the many factors that got this matchup to happen. It just happened to be one of the more obvious ways it could have been easily avoided. Oh and if you didn't catch why it changes the matchup, it would have eliminated the Rams and then the Saints of New Orleans would have made the playoffs and been the sixth seed and played Green Bay.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Sarah - So's your face 01/09/2005 @ 09:32:08 AM
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! Today's the day!		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 09:40:51 AM
so, are you saying that going for 2 is always pointless? It seemed like it made decent sense in that game, but I could see the problem of which you speak.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Super Chocolate Bear 01/09/2005 @ 12:13:11 PM
I didn't say they shouldn't have caled it. I just wish "punishment" calls, unlike calling PI or holding, which can actually effect the play, couldn't have such an impact on the game. Going for 2 is a last minute thing in a "must" situation. I don't know how many times I've seen a team go too early, miss it and have the 1 point be a huge difference in the end, or end up not needing the point anyway. It just isn't worth the risk until very late in the game.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 01:04:04 PM
ok, i see the point of the roughing the passer thing, and I kind of see your point. In that kind of situation, the refs hands are tied. In hockey, cheap shots after the whistle and stuff equivalent to something like roughing the passer are often treated as punishing just the player who committed the penalty. I'm not sure if that would work in football, but it is something that might merrit some thought. However, I will rarely defend a defensive player who roughs the passer. But I now understand the gripe.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 01:07:15 PM
I went 2-0 yesterday. Nobody picked the jets. I'm probably the only one. None of the ESPN guys picked the jets, none picked the broncos, and none picked the vikings.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - No one's gay for Moleman 01/09/2005 @ 01:16:23 PM
Watching the Colts it's hard to beleive the Vikings lost to them on a last second fg without Moss.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 01:19:18 PM
referring to how good the colts are?		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 01:23:54 PM
dang		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 01:28:53 PM
when did Indy get a defense?		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 01:41:45 PM
you have to make this reference: I think Jake Plummer is actually a distant relative of Frank Reich.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - You're going to have to call your hardware guy. It's not a software issue. 01/09/2005 @ 01:57:35 PM
Peyton Manning.....360 passing yards in the first half. Broncos Offense....103 total yards in the first half.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Sarah - 4671 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 03:26:44 PM
Ok, let's go people!		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 04:14:52 PM
should have been a viking int, which would have resulted in a packer first down. bad call, too bad		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - You're going to have to call your hardware guy. It's not a software issue. 01/09/2005 @ 04:19:17 PM
the game starts now		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - No, I did not change your screen saver settings 01/09/2005 @ 04:30:27 PM
the walker injury is a killer		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - Ma'am, can you make sure your computer is turned on? 01/09/2005 @ 05:43:33 PM
ok, I defend Favre more than anyone else in history, and a couple of those ints were a little bit up in the air as far as who was at fault(one was a miscommunication on a route, another was a batted ball) , but he is not playing a good game. What is going on. The Packers are fortunate to even be down by only 14. Since when did the Vikings get a defense.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 06:12:43 PM
whatever respect I was gaining in Randy Moss I just lost and than some. That was the most disrespectful and disgusting celebration I could imagine. Moss was WIPING HIS ASS ON THE GOALPOST? Yeah, Moss, you're a real man. I would advocate cheap shots if I was a coach right now.(maybe not the last part, but that's how I feel.)		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - You've got to trust your instinct, and let go of regret 01/09/2005 @ 06:36:26 PM
The team that played better won. I'll leave it at that.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Cory 01/09/2005 @ 06:40:01 PM
bust		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - I believe virtually everything I read. 01/09/2005 @ 06:56:27 PM
I thought it was slipping away when the offense kept doing nothing with what the D was giving them. I don't think the fake moon thing was that bad. If it wasn't Randy Moss everyone would have thought it was funny. He's just a human being and had 60,000 people giving him sh!t for the whole game. We have to stop thinking, like with the Pacers thing, that fans can do anything and players are supposed to just take it. Atheletes aren't supposed to be classy, deal with it. :) Once you have a label people look for anything to justify it. Now what I'm about to say I don't mean to be taken as rubbing it in anyones face, or taking a jab at anyone. Please take this as non biased, honest, observation. Was it the fast start that got Farve where he is in NFL lore? People RIDE Manning for not being able to win the big games. Well Favre has officially been a liability in the playoffs for a few years running, and I don't understand why he is beyond critizing for that aspect. I mean if one super bowl makes you a sure fire hall of famer than there are alot of guys in that category. I'm not even arguing he shouldn't be in the hall, he's a lock, I'm just saying how many more years of it will it take before he gets some heat for this?		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 06:56:43 PM
I agree with icbeast, unfortunately. Randy Moss deserves all the bashing he gets from the media from this point on. Talent and class don't go hand in hand, and talent only excuses so much.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Sarah - 4671 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 07:05:39 PM
The Packers played an awful game, did the better team win? No. I am not even going to comment on the Favre comment, because it is biased and stupid. We wouldn't be in the playoffs ever if it weren't for Favre. Randy Moss is how old? That was the most disrespectful thing I have ever seen. I have never seen anything like it. He was running his mouth off the whole game to the fans. While I have no doubt that fans were saying something, was there any reason to "moon" people and wipe his ass on the goal post? He is a dispicable human being, who because he has some talent, gets to do whatever the hell he wants with no consequences. His coach doesn't penalize, his teammates must feel bad, he gets preferential treatment, but if they were to do anything like that, they would get their butts kicked. During the pregame show, JB stuck up for him, just saying he's used to what Randy Moss is, but after the game he just called him classless. He doesn't get it and probably never will, based on all of his actions throughout the years. Would I have laughed if it was anybody else? No. I enjoy most TD celebrations, but if anyone else did what he had done, I would still find it tasteless. Go Pittsburgh!		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Super Chocolate Bear 01/09/2005 @ 07:19:10 PM
I didn't say anything about Favre getting the Packers anywhere. His punishment is everyone thinking he's a dick. He's accepted that at this point he could save 100 kids from a burning orphenage and people would say well if he didnt loaf around kid 67 he could have saved 101, so he's stopped caring. I didn't mind the "sharpie" incident, and I think people are overblowing this.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Anon. Nut Can Fan (Guest) 01/09/2005 @ 07:25:46 PM
All the Randy comments are just as biased as Jeremy's Brett Favre comment. It was Randy Moss against the packers on a TD that sealed the game to knock the packers out of the playoffs. Obviously you all didn't like it.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - I hate our freedoms 01/09/2005 @ 07:35:53 PM
I don't think my comment was biased. It was an honest question posed to people that I was hoping could look at the situation honestly.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Sarah - How do you use these things? 01/09/2005 @ 07:42:42 PM
Obviously I don't like the fact that we lost to the Vikings. Yea, Randy Moss got 2 TDs which is how much they won by. Big deal. That doesn't make Randy Moss any less of a dick. Ask anyone in America.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 08:10:41 PM
yeah, go ahead and defend the guy. He's great, full of class and a real role model. I want my kids to grow up and be just like him. Athlete's aren't supposed to be classy? What, do you and Charles Barkely get together and talk about how athlete's should act? They are in front of millions of people every week. There needs to be some level of decency and class, but apparently Randy Moss has none, and I hope the league takes notice, and makes an example out of someone, finally. I had a problem with the sharpie incident, but not nearly as much of a problem as I have with this. NOT because it is Randy Moss, but because of the act. But if you want to try to defend the guy, go ahead. Randy Moss makes me sick, I'll leave it at that. How a player acts on the field has a big indicator on what kind of a person he is off the field.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Bretx0r uses Firefox (Guest) 01/09/2005 @ 08:15:00 PM
Quote: "His punishment is everyone thinking he's a dick. He's accepted that at this point he could save 100 kids from a burning orphenage and people would say well if he didnt loaf around kid 67 he could have saved 101, so he's stopped caring. I didn't mind the "sharpie" incident, and I think people are overblowing this." He could begin by not wiping his ass on the goalpost. I think that would be a good start.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Cory - 44 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 08:18:53 PM
I still don't see why what he did is so wrong. He didn't actually do anything... at all. He made a little gesture... im pretty sure Jake Plummers gesture a few weeks ago when he flicked off the crowd was 10 times as bad as this was. I didn't see any posts on here about that and if there were some i guess i missed them and even if there were nobody seemed to be going off about that. The stadium was filled with signs bashing Randy and the last time the Vikings played at Lambeau they had the local marching band walk right in front of Moss with trombones that said "Where you at Moss?" on them. He was taking shit from the fans all game. Just a little justice.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 08:19:14 PM
to summarize, Randy Moss is the victim here. Can't you people realize that?		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Sarah - So's your face 01/09/2005 @ 08:29:46 PM
We did comment on Jake Plummer, or at least I think I did. And he was fined. I am used to people flicking other people off, but he should have had some self control, as well as Moss. Moss' was just more tasteless. At every game there are signs bashing other players. They were funny signs, they weren't saying f u Moss, they were just funny. As for the one time the tubas (have u ever seen a trombone?) had the Where you at Moss? signs, it was a joke, something that Moss even laughed at. Everyone got a kick out of it. It wasn't bathroom humor. I can't wait for the day that Moss shows some self-discipline. However, I think I'll be waiting for some time. Take off your "purple and yellow" glasses and wake up and see who Moss really is and take it for face value.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Robots don't say 'ye' 01/09/2005 @ 08:36:01 PM
I was going to post about plummer myself, but I see cory beat me to it. First of all I never defended Randy, I just said stop acting like it's the end of the freaking world. Athletes shouldn't be asked to be role models. They aren't period. Furthermore I would rather have my kid pretending to moon a crowd than take bottles of pills at a time, throw them up, and pick them out of the vomit, to swallow them again. Every athlete has skeletons in the closet. ESPN has TJ Housmanzada (I'm not going to look up the real spelling) on as a "player correspondent" and he didn't think it was a big deal. He also said he didn't think Randy deserved a fine since his normal celebrating involves handing the ball to a handicapped fan. If this was Reggie Wayne against the Jaguars in a mid season game we wouldn't be having this conversation. It was a person no one liked already vs the Packers. In order to think that it was truely "dispicable" you have to take umbrage to any kind of celebration, and I don't think anyone here is nessisarily a "they should hand the ball to the ref" person. It wasn't so far beyond the line of normal celebrating. He didn't actually moon the crowd. He didnt pretend to have sex with the goal post. He didn't pretend to whip it out and then do something. If you truley think it was disgusting then you REALLY need a reality check. It was less classy than normal celebrations yes, but in a way that's like saying shooting someone 5 times is less classy than shooting them 3 times. It's either all celebrations are bad or you live with what happens.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 1.21 Gigawatts!?!? 01/09/2005 @ 08:37:31 PM
Well Moss said after the game it was intended as a joke and he didn't mean to offend anyone, so I guess all is forgiven if it's intended as a joke.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Anon. Nut Can Fan (Guest) 01/09/2005 @ 08:53:29 PM
tubas... my bad... i was typing and not really thinking... flicking the crowd off or running to the sidelines and ripping signs off the wall are much worse than what randy did. was it necessary, no, but no celebrations are. this is being made a way bigger deal than it actually is.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 08:59:32 PM
Speaking of classy role models did you notice how it was glossed over when Favre started throwing punches? Get over it already. Atheletes get to the level they are at by being self absorbed jerks. To (Im assuming Cory) just leave it be, it was the play that officially knocked their team out, no rational argument will deter them from acting like Randy tossed a can on Anthrax into the crowd.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Cory 01/09/2005 @ 09:02:37 PM
which if favre did it would be laughed at and joked about.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Always thinking of, but never about, the children. 01/09/2005 @ 09:04:25 PM
Im not defending Randy, I don't think he's a victim, he made his bed and now he has to lay in it. It was not classy. I know he is a jerk. I'm just saying get some perspective here people. 90% of the league are jerks and the other 10% pretend not to be for the cameras. He pretended to moon the crowd and them did a shimmy on the goal post. Saying this is worse than flipping of the crowd is ludicrus.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Cory - 44 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 09:07:01 PM
favre underhands a pass 4 yards past the line of scrimmage and the announcers laugh about it and say thats just the kinda play you get out of brett favre when he costs his team what could have been a first down and a potential 7 points, which led to them losing 5 yards and a down to end up missing the fg and getting 0 points. brilliant play however.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 09:07:05 PM
If Favre did throw the anthrax into the crowd it would be blamed on a WR for running the wrong route. There seems to have been lots of recivers running the wrong routes over the years, funny how no matter who they have in there since 1992 consistantly runs the wrong routes.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - 3619 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 09:20:14 PM
I was going to keep my mouth (fingers?) shut, but I have nothing better to do. The Moss thing was over the edge, but so was the reaction to it. However, don't compare it to the Sharpie incident because that was much more original and hilarious. A better comparison was the Dallas star incident, which on one hand I found very enjoyable, yet it too was probably over the edge. As far as Favre goes, let me first remind you that he not only won a Super Bowl, he has 3 MVP awards. Then let me be the first Packer fan to admit that the his last play before the end of the half was one of the dumbest plays I have ever seen. The last interception was totally his fault, some of the others were at least partly due to the fact that the receivers messed up. I place the blame for those plays though more on the play-caller for calling those type of option route plays on a day when Favre and his receivers were clearly not on the same page. Also, for what it's worth some of those call against Carrol were pretty weak. He (as well as Al) have gained a reputation for holding penalties and eventually that has to have an effect on the refs. On close calls they're not going to get the benefit of the doubt. The Vikings fumbled about 5 times and managed to recover it each time.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 09:29:21 PM
yeah, take shameless cheapshots at brett favre simply because you don't like him. That is the most rediculous and insulting comment i've ever heard, and we all know who you are talking about. If Brett Favre at any time promoted the fact that he had an addiction, and was proud of it, then I would not blame you for attacking him. If Favre was proud of his mistakes, that would be one thing. That statement is about the biggest peice of bullshit I can imagine, and seriously, I am shocked that someone would even joke about that. It was extremely personal, he came clean in front of the media, and he has turned his life around. Brett Favre has skeletons in his closet, but he took control of his life. There is something to be admired about that. How could you stoop to that level. Seriously, learn something about decency. I'm now more upset about the drug comment than I was about the Moss thing. You guys just absolutely don't get it. But then again you are defending a guy who doesn't get it either. This has nothing to do with WHO did it. You say if it was Brett Favre who did it people would laugh. BRETT FAVRE DID NOT DO IT, SO THAT LOGIC IS COMPLETELY BOGUS. With that logic you could say "well if Favre murders his wife like Scott Pederson did we would all just laugh and not worry about it." And from what everyone has watched of Brett Favre over his career, you know darn well that he would not do something like that. He doesn't even celebrate other than tackeling his teammates or pumping his fists. He used to do the "cutthroat" gesture until the league told him not to, and he stopped as soon as they did. If Favre ever does something classless, then talk about it. And I would like to see replay of Favre throwing punches, I am very interested in this peice of footage. And not all celebrations are bad. Only a small minority.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 09:42:27 PM
as to not appear a fool, I no what you are talking about when you say Favre was throwing punches, it was when the vikings player was hit for unnecessary roughing. I would hardly qualify anything that happened by anyone in that little scuffle to have been a punch.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 09:42:46 PM
know, not "no"		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 09:58:41 PM
Oh, I forgot we can't talk about something once it's labeled an addiction. It didn't happen anymore. Favre stopped the cutthroat gesture after he did it and was fined for it AFTER the league told him to stop it. They never really showed Favre throwing punches, you see him go in, they cut away, and you see a teammate pulling him out. The announcers just said he did. I've been informed however that it isn't bad since "the vikings are all jerks" Alex can always be counted on to be the reasonable page 3er on either side of the issue. It is closer to the star thing. Which he did twice. And the an extent once this year. I had a problem with none of them. If you don't want them to rub it in your face don't let them in the endzone. What is really beyond me with the celebration rules is that people on one hand complain that celebrating makes it all about one person in a team sport, but it's illegal to "team celebrate". If anything shouldn't it be a requirement to involve fans or the team in any celebration? Favre does have 3 MVP awards yes. But Daunte's year this year is as good as his MVP years. Maybe there was just no one else that was good :) Really though I don't mean to take anything from him, I just don't get why he has become beyond critisism. I agree some of those were ticky tack "PI" calls, but thems the rules, they were talking about in the early game today how since the new emphasis came off of last years playoffs that they expected them to be really picky about the "holding" in this years playoffs. It was a pretty lame penalty on Johnstone too given the situation, but again, thems the rules. I'm pretty sure the ball was on the ground about 7 million times (or in the Bubba Franks case magically landing in his arms) fllowing fumbles or muffs yet none lead to the other team getting the ball.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Bretx0r uses Firefox (Guest) 01/09/2005 @ 09:59:06 PM
Scott is my hero.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 10:03:40 PM
it's not that you mentioned it, it's how you mentioned it as if he did something in cold blood or promoted his lifestyle like there wasn't anythingi wrong with it. Like I said, you guys just don't get it. please, don't even start with "you shouldn't have let him into the endzone" crap. So you're saying a player can do anything he wants with no regulation once he scores? That's crap.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Broadcast in stunning 1080i 01/09/2005 @ 10:06:00 PM
PS Why arent Bret od Alex on AIM if they are on here?		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Pie Racist 01/09/2005 @ 10:14:34 PM
They can't do anything they want no we do live in a society. But he didn't assult anyone, he didn't flick anyone off, with everything that has happened this year it's hard to imagine this is worth talking about. This really wasn't that much worse than what we are used to for "out there" TD celebrations, execpt that it happened in Lambeau. Here is something I found on the Packer Message board, filled with the biggest bunch of homers this side of page 3, it was written by someone who takes even less time to write a post than me, but you can make out most of it: "Yeah Randy Moss is an Ass. But look at what hwe did as fans to fuel his fire! They were placating tot he Neanderthal in all of us, and we fell for it! DO YOU REMEMBER THE MARCHING BAND SPELLING OUT 'WHERE'S MOSS???,' that was more eliberate, and a more disrespectful act?? Do you think any of those Packer fans have any respect for Moss, did you see all their signs that was his way of toying with them, he probably shouldn't have done it, but he was just having fun, the fans deserved it, Joe Buck and the T.B. and all of the fox media guys shouldn't have made it that big of deal, that was a joke!"		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - The pig says "My wife is a slut?" 01/09/2005 @ 10:31:51 PM
For some reason I like this more theme now.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Cube Phenomenoligist 01/09/2005 @ 10:59:40 PM
My point was Scott that no matter how they act when the camera is on there aren't many atheletes where you would say "I hope my kids grow up like [name]" Every team has pot smokers, alcoholics, jerks, adulterers, addicts, ex addicts. One of the premier "face of the league" players was involved in a murder investigation, his team mate was indited for drug trafficing. In the scheme of contraversy a fake moon is nothing. There is a difference between "not getting it" and not careing what people think.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - 6225 Posts 01/09/2005 @ 11:56:36 PM
According to ESPN's Chris Mortensen, Moss can expect som "heat from the NFL. When asked for a reaction to the touchdown celebration, an NFL spokesman told Mortensen: "Randy Moss can expect to be hearing from us."--espn.com we'll just see how these guys see it.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - 3619 Posts 01/10/2005 @ 12:03:07 AM
This theme still makes me want to puke. And yes Daunte has had an excellent year. But he is not and doesn't seem to be the kind of guy who can rally the team around him or carry his team to victory. His skills are good, but he just doesn't seem to be quite the leader you look for in a QB. That's really about the only criticizm I can come up with for him this year. That, and how does he have that good of a year and they still go 8-8? So the Chargers and Packers are both out now and I really don't have any teams to cheer for. Obviously I can cheer against the Vikings, but I don't really want to cheer for the Eagles, and a guy I work with is a big Rams fan and he's annoying about it. So I guess it's the Falcons by default. I'll just pretend it's Neon, Rison, George, Ironhead, and Mathis out there instead of Vick and 10 guys no one cares about. And I'll take the Colts in AFC. Defense wins championships, but that gets old after a while so why not win one for the offense. I was practicing my CS skills instead of being on AIM so I don't embarass myself so much next time we play.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/10/2005 @ 08:25:16 AM
The NFL also fined Chad Johnson for holding up a sign saying please don't fine me NFL. They also review game tape to find players with their jerseys untucked or their socks not pulled all the way up to fine them. A No Fun League fine will come just because they don't want people in the news. It won't mean anything. Plant the bomb icebeast!!! icebeast plant!!! Where are you going icebeast??? PLANT!...hilarious.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Always thinking of, but never about, the children. 01/10/2005 @ 08:37:43 AM
Also what we haven't talked about yet as far as one of the cruelest celebrations I can think of is Owens doing the Ray Lewis dance after everything that happened between him and the Ravens and their fans. I mean that was coldblooded...and still hilarious.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Matt - 3941 Posts 01/10/2005 @ 10:59:30 AM
As Page 3's Ombudsman, I'll weigh in on a few things: 1. Moss is a jerk, but as Jeremy said, sports are full of jerks, many worse than Moss. 2. The celebration was stupid, childish, and over the line, but I wouldn't say it was disgusting or dispicable. 3. While Favre didn't throw any real punches (he did throw some shoves), what was bad about what he did was that everything was pretty much over until he ran in and got in Claiborne's face and then in Offord's. While a fight didn't break out, it easily could have and it would have been because of Favre's instigation. This wasn't the first time I've seen him get in the middle of crap where he has no business. Any other player would get heat for it, but not Favre. 4. Jeremy's observation that Favre has blown playoff games the past few years and gets away with it, while Manning is criticized for less, is a valid point. 5. His "don't let them in the endzone" stance is, however, not. 6. All celebrations beyond a simple spike and or high-fives/hugs with teammates are stupid. 7. With Moss healthy the Vikings easily go 10-6 and Culpepper's "leadership" isn't questioned. Good players play on bad teams sometimes.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/10/2005 @ 01:15:16 PM
I just think that periodically we need to be reminded that it is, after all, a game we watch to be entertained. That's why I've never had a problem with anything Owens does following a td. (The second run to the star was the closest I've been to having a problem, but in a way that made it all the better) Had Horn's cell phone thing been executed in less than an hour and with less than half the team looking for the phone I would have enjoyed that. I got a big kick out of Johnsons sign. It's a game, Moss did it in jest, I don't understand the reaction to it. If you want to be pissed about something be pissed Al Harris let a wheelchair ridden Moss get 10 yards behind him. That is all anyone at work is saying about the play. These same people spent 40 hours talking about Moss leaving early last week. My point really was Matt that you either take the position that all celebrations are bad, like you did, or you take the good with the bad and don't whine about it. Singleing Moss out for being childish compared to other celebrations when you are talking about grown men doing some of the goofiest looking things ever is just silly to me.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - But let history remember, that as free men, we chose to make it so! 01/10/2005 @ 01:37:30 PM
I posted this at the end of last week's forum, but I don't think anyone saw it and it deserves a repost here anyway: Quote (actually it's an excerpt from an article by Dan Le Batard in The Mag) for the day: "And there are too many examples of football being a game in name only. TO dances in the end zone, and he's 'disrespecting the game,' whatever the heck that means. Can you disrespect, say, Chutes and Ladders?"		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/10/2005 @ 02:58:37 PM
Just to clarify you aren't suposed to enjoy opponents celebrations, and I'm not suggesting ya'll should find it funny. I still get pissed when they show McNabb moonwalking against the Vikings, but I accept it as part of the game.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Pie Racist 01/10/2005 @ 05:28:40 PM
That's funny Alex, I didn't actually see that, but we had the exact conversation at work today, although oddily enough it started about steriods and Pete Rose in baseball. The conversation turned to the Moss incident and the general consensous was that obviously they didn't like it, because of the situation, but that taking it beyond having fun in a game is pretty stupid.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - 3619 Posts 01/10/2005 @ 05:34:44 PM
And just to clarify that quote, professional sports really are not just games in the simple sense of the word. It is entertainment for the fans yes, but there is a lot at stake also for the people involved in the "games". And also I just found the part about disrepecting Chutes and Ladders to be lol hilarious. And for the record I don't like Joe Buck. His outburst following the Moss incident was bordering on psycho. Well maybe not quite, but he's a pompous a$$. Aikman is a good announcer and deserves better than to have to work with Buck and Collinsworth. Stick those 2 in a booth with Paul McGuire and Theismann and then turn their mikes off without telling them and just broadcast the stadium announcer.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/10/2005 @ 05:50:31 PM
Yeah, for a second I was wondering if Joe actually thought Randy did moon the crowd. He went so far as to apologize for showing it on live TV. (Forgetting the fact that there is a 5 second delay just for the type of thing he was complaining about.) There is alot at stake for the players yes. But it's not some hollowed religious ceremony that you can "show disrespect to". The problem is the media is all wanna be's or ex players who resent current players contracts and what not and honestly beleive that they paved the way for something sacred to take place and that they are the only "real" football players and therefor can cast down anything they dont like or be personally offended by it. How was that for a run on sentence? And if I may type like a 5th grader I did as well lol @ 'chutes and ladders'.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/10/2005 @ 06:25:59 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/quickie I'll paste since it wont be up for long. Call it "Wardrobe Function." Moss' "Moon" move to celebrate his game-clinching TD catch in the 4th quarter was more than crass; it was the boldest celebratory gesture of the season (take that, T.O.). Ugly? Hardly: It was awesome! More important, it was catharsis for a team given no chance to stumble into Lambeau and glide out with the biggest upset of wild-card weekend. He didn't just turn a cheek at the Packers' end-zone fans. His move was for the haters in the media, the doubters in Minnesota and the fans of top-seed Philly, suddenly a little more nervous. Sure, he'll be fined and undoubtedly excoriated everywhere in the media -- except here. (Hey, it's not like he actually dropped his drawers.) Here's the NFL's dirty secret: If you make plays, you can do what you want. And Moss delivered a TD. And another. And, as a bonus, the most telegenic hair in football. There's a new rallying cry for the Vikings: 'Fro the ball to Randy!		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/10/2005 @ 06:31:38 PM
WOW, turns out Randy didn't just pull the celebration out of his ass. "Indianapolis Colts coach Tony Dungy said he saw Moss' action and, "I thought it was kind of humorous." "It's not the kind of thing you want to see on national TV, but I understand what it was all about," he said. "Anyone who has played in the NFC Central knows what that's about. The fans in Green Bay have a tradition in the parking lot after the game where they moon the visiting team's bus," he said. "It's kind of a unique sendoff." "I had seen it seven times because when I was with the Vikings, we lost to them seven times up there," he said."		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/10/2005 @ 06:50:32 PM
From JS Online "Packers-Vikings telecast a big deal for Fox team Posted: Jan. 9, 2005 The order of the day was big. Big game. Big stakes. Big rivalry. Big mistakes. Big hair. On the second day of the National Football Leagues playoffs, everything was taking place on a grand scale. The broadcast day began with a slew of examinations of Randy Moss walking off early in a game against Washington a week earlier ended with an examination of Moss miming a moon at Packers fans in Lambeau. BIGGEST OVERREACTION: Joe Buck, who was handling play-by-play in the telecast, found horror in Moss mimed moon after he caught his second touchdown pass. After Moss beat cornerback Al Harris, Moss pantomimed a moon at the Packers fans adjacent to the end zone. He shoots the moon to the fans here in Green Bay, analyst Cris Collinsworth said as Moss taunt was shown live. Then Buck boomed in with his objection. That is a disgusting act by Randy Moss, Buck said. I think its unfortunate that we had that on our air live. That is disgusting by Randy Moss. It happened on live television and it was appropriate Fox showed it on live television. Fox really didnt have a choice. Fox chose not to replay Moss gesture in the rest of the telecast of the game. That Buck said something is not the issue. He should have said something. But his reaction was excessive. Given what Buck said and the way he said it, you would have thought Moss actually pulled his pants down. Disgusting? Not really. Classless or tasteless or unprofessional or garbage, but not all the horror Bucks word and tone suggested. BIGGEST CONTRADICTION: Before he interviewed Moss last week, Fox studio analyst Jimmy Johnson called the Vikings receiver the most misunderstood player in the league. He said the reaction to Moss walking off the field early against Washington was overblown. But then Johnson, in the interview with Moss that aired Sunday, told Moss he made a mistake leaving early. So apparently hes not misunderstood but, in fact, is understood only too well. Then Johnson was asked if he would want Moss on his team. I would with some hesitation, Johnson said. Only if he would try, try to change his attitude. And the chances of that are pretty slim. So is he or is he not misunderstood? Is he or is he not worth having on your team? Johnson answered yes to all of the above. BEST SHOT OF BIG, BEAUTIFUL HAIR, HERE MOMMA, THERE MOMMA, EVERYWHERE DADDY, DADDY: After Moss caught a touchdown pass to make the score 14-0 in the first quarter, some fans behind the Vikings bench must have yelled something at Moss, because Moss, looking a little like Jimi Hendrix in full fro flower, was shown pointing the scoreboard and saying Look at the (darn) scoreboard! Look at the (darn) scoreboard! Moss didnt say darn. He said something with a few more syllables in it. But that was a darn good picture, and helped you understand better why Moss did what he did after his second touchdown. BIGGEST QUICK TAKE: On Favres second interception, in the second quarter to Brian Russell, analyst Troy Aikman was terrifically swift in determining who was to blame on the play. Thats all on Walker, Aikman said. Javon Walker started to flatten his route out and Brett Favre was beginning to unload it. At the last minute, he ran a vertical route and thats why (Minnesota) got the interception. Two replays, especially the second one, showed Aikman was spot on. BIGGEST INAPPROPRIATE JOKE: Both Aikman and Collinsworth were much too jocular about Favres penalty right before Ryan Longwell missed a field-goal attempt to end the first half. They were joking too much about Favre the happy warrior trying to make a play. Favre attempted to shovel the ball to a receiver in the end zone even though he was 4 yards past the line of scrimmage. The analysts laughed it off but it appeared that even if Favre couldnt have run the ball into the end zone, he might have been able to get a first down or at least made Longwells kick shorter. The penalty wiped out third down. Collinsworth apparently thought better of his comments on the play during halftime. On a replay of Favres play, Collinsworth was more serious about the implications of Favres play. He wondered if the Packers would have been better served if Favre had run with the ball. BIGGEST INSIGHT: Aikman had a terrific read on the Moss controversy causing the Vikings to rally. Who would have thought that the actions by Randy Moss would have this brand of galvanizing effect on the Minnesota Vikings? Buck asked. Said Aikman: The thing that was impressive to me was what Matt Birk did at the end of that game and what Daunte Culpepper did during the week. Those two guys stepped up and said that it was wrong. They clearly are the leaders of this team. I think that this team has rallied around those guys and not rallied around Randy Moss."		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jon - Nutcan.com's kitten expert 01/10/2005 @ 07:24:52 PM
I really don't want to comment. But I do. Well no, I don't. Ok. I will. Moss celebration=bad. And I certainly don't want to start fights, or rather continue them, but... Was it "the most disrespectful thing I have ever seen"? or "the most disrespectful and disgusting celebration I could imagine."? I don't think so, and I imagine the people who made those comments probably don't think so either. Just for the record though, I understand hyperbole, but I get a kick out of the use of superlatives in sports discussions. (Bill Walton for president!) But remember. I still hold that: Moss celebration=bad. Now, for the Culpeepper thing. (I left this typo in cause I think it's funny) I know I'm a Viking fan and so obviously I want to defend him and everything, but seriously, I think the criticism about not being a leader is kind of a soft argument. It may be true, or it may not be. I just don't think that's the kidn of thing we can see from our position. Here's what I did see though. An overlooked thing about the last touchdown the Vikings scored was that it was Culpepper that made it possible. He saw the defense, he told Randy what to do, and he made the pass. I don't know what goes on "in the locker room" and whether he inspires teammates and whatnot, but what I saw on that play was a quarterback leading his team to a touchdown. Also, sicne I know how we all love to talk aobut favre, this is my take on his retirement thing. I don't think he will (just a feeling I guess) and here's the other thing. I hope he doesn't. As much as the swooning over him is nauseating and the losses to him are sickening, I like having him around. I just do. I consider him a great quarterback and I like to see great players do their thing while they still can.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/10/2005 @ 07:46:34 PM
They mentioned Favre pondering retirement on the radio on the way home and I thought too that it would be a bitter sweet moment. Seeing the Packers suck in his absence will be funny, but rivalries are fun, and he's THE rival.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - I believe virtually everything I read. 01/10/2005 @ 07:47:18 PM
Also for the record only the Burleson TD was a called play.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - Refactor Mercilessly 01/10/2005 @ 10:38:13 PM
I didn't mean to imply that Culpepper is the worst leader ever, just that if there's anything to pick on him about this year that might be something he could work on. This isn't really a good measure of that but still, when the media asks the question, "Which QB would you pick to lead your team down the field at the end of the game to get a TD?" Culpepper doesn't get chosen very often. Maybe he's somewhat underrated, maybe he just hasn't had a chance to show what he can do in that situation in prime time, whatever the case I'm just suggesting that it's something he could be better at. As far as Favre goes, I'm going to go somewhere I probably shouldn't. The one thing that has always defined Favre is his toughness and his love of playing the game. Two Vikings fans just alluded to that so you know it's true. His biggest weapons have always been his strong arm and elusiveness in the pocket, both of which are on a decline but he still had a Pro Bowl type season, can throw as hard as anyone in the league, and took very few hits. He can still get it done physically. However, if he is going to come back next year he needs to rededicate himself mentally and I think he knows it. I just saw a little part of an interview of him talking about retirement and I'll attempt to summarize what he said. He said basically what I just said, his skills are on the decline but he can still get it done. And he knows the Packers want him back. Then he said something to the effect that he almost wishes the game was starting to pass him by more because that would make the decision to retire easier. This is just my opinion and Favre has played the media for years with his retirement talk, but at this point in time I'm not convinced that he really wants to come back. He used to be a carefree gunslinger who played his heart out every down. But he's grown up now, he has a family and kids, his wife has cancer, and I think all the other things in his personal life have really taking a toll on him and football has become less important. I'm not saying he should retire and I'm not saying I want him to retire. I'm just saying that for the first time in his career I can see him walking away from the game now and being at peace with himself. I just found the video of the news conference to make sure I wasn't making a fool of myself. Packers home page It's in the middle on the video tab under Packers-Vikings Post-Game - 01/09. He talks about retirement from about 7:15-13:15. Right after losing a playoff game usually isn't the best time to talk about retirement, but still he really sounds like he's torn at the moment. Now this is going to be very harsh and I hate to say it and hope the rest of you can come up with a good reason to dispute it because I'd feel much better then, but if I could say one thing to him about his upcoming decision, I would have to ask him what happened on the play before halftime. One of my favorite Favre images is him diving head-first into the endzone against the Falcons way back in the day. I realize what happened yesterday was just one play, but when the headlong dive into the endzone Favre becomes the don't take a hit, get a penalty that costs the team 5 yards and a down Favre, I'd have to call him out on that for his own good. That was painful to type.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/10/2005 @ 11:42:55 PM
It would be hard to judge based on an interview right after a game like that, I'm sure it was a simmilar press conference following his last few playoff games and he has come back those times. He said that pass against the Eagles was almost the sole reason he came back. He has indeed played the media like fiddles for years on the issue, however with all that is happening in his life if it isn't this year it's never. OF COURSE his wife is going to tell him to keep playing if she wants. She doesn't want to be remembered as the Yoko that sent the Packers up a creek for half a decade. But I don't beleive for a millisecond that his family doesn't want him home. What was beyond me about that play was the "Oh that silly Favre" reaction to it. Worst case senereo he ends up damn close to a first down. The Vikings pick off that little flip and it's a declinable penalty. There is having fun and there is being just plain stupid, the closest anyone came to telling it like it is was Collinsworth like 15 minutes later saying "maybe if they had those 5 yards they make that fg". WHAT IN GODS NAME DOES THE MAN NEED TO DO TO WARRENT THE TINIEST CRITIZISM?		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/11/2005 @ 12:01:00 AM
In the latest thing to blow my mind Peyton Manning nearly got every vote for MVP save one. Michael Vick got a vote. 26th in yards. (QB11 doubled his) 14 TDs to QB11's 39. One more int than QB11. He did have rushing yards 900 to QB11s 400, but vote for Curtis Martin if that's what you are going for. As far as I can tell Vick doesn't break the top 20 in any passing stat.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Sarah - 4671 Posts 01/11/2005 @ 06:51:11 AM
I don't have any logical things to say about Favre at the moment because I am getting ready for work, but it would break my heart if he retired right now. Yet, we really don't have a good team (d-wise) to back him up, so he's just being wasted somewhat. I couldn't believe he threw that ball when he was so clearly past the line of scrimmage. I yelled at him at that moment and didn't think it was funny because it cost us a potential 7 points. Whoever voted for Vick should get his votings rights provoked. Their defense was good and Vick wasn't and clearly Manning, Peyton was MVP. Good lord.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/11/2005 @ 07:27:35 AM
What happens when you piss off voting rights?		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - But let history remember, that as free men, we chose to make it so! 01/11/2005 @ 05:11:15 PM
Voting for Vick was ridiculous.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Bretx0r uses Firefox (Guest) 01/11/2005 @ 05:37:47 PM
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	Sarah - So's your face 01/11/2005 @ 06:17:27 PM
Revoked, whatever. screw off		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - Refactor Mercilessly 01/11/2005 @ 06:52:01 PM
Is anyone a ESPN.com Insider by any chance?		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Pie Racist 01/11/2005 @ 08:15:03 PM
Matt is, not that he has ever sent me any insider info.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Sarah - 4671 Posts 01/11/2005 @ 09:34:24 PM
Not all players are jerks: PITTSBURGH - Ben Roethlisberger has surprised his Pittsburgh Steelers (news)' teammates many times during his unbeaten rookie season. He did so again Tuesday, announcing he'll donate his first NFL playoff paycheck to the tsunami victims relief effort. Even on a team that openly encourages its players to participate in charity activities and community events, Roethlisberger's $18,000 gesture before Saturday's Jets-Steelers game created a positive stir. "Wow, I didn't even know that," wide receiver Hines Ward said. "Guys do a lot of different things in different ways that people don't always hear about, but that's great that's for a great cause, definitely. That's a big tragedy, and I hope everyone will at least donate (something)." Unlike the regular season, when each player earns a weekly share of his base salary, playoff salaries are determined by the league's collective bargaining agreement and each player is paid the same. Roethlisberger, who is 13-0 as a rookie quarterback, hopes other NFL players will follow his lead. "I'm going to donate my game check this week to the tsunami relief and hopefully maybe (it will be) a challenge for other people to do that, too," Roethlisberger said. Roethlisberger became motivated to act after numerous NBA players including Kobe Bryant, Jermaine O'Neal and Bob Sura donated $1,000 per point scored last weekend to the relief effort. The NBA players' union also donated $500,000, and the NBA will match the gift. In the NFL, the Patriots made playoff tickets available to fans who donated at least $1,000 to efforts to aid the estimated 5 million tsunami victims. "A game check isn't anything like some of the Yankees and some of those people who've donated a million dollars, but every little thing they can get can help," Roethlisberger said. "Hopefully, it's a challenge to other NFL players. We've seen the NBA players do it." Roethlisberger, the NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year, has a base salary of $230,000, but also will collect $9 million in signing and roster bonuses by early next year and as much as $2.6 million in first-season performance bonuses. Roethlisberger's gesture impressed Steelers coach Bill Cowher, who has talked all season about the rookie's maturity. "That's a heck of a gesture on his part. That says a lot about the kid for him to do something like that," Cowher said. "I've said all along the kid's got a great perspective on things and that's another example of it." No other Steelers players have said if they will match Roethlisberger's gesture, which was announced just before practice and may not yet be known to them.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Pie Racist 01/11/2005 @ 10:12:27 PM
Moss gives to charities all the time. Every year he rents out a theme park or something to take all the kids from the crappy neighborhood he grew up in out for the day. Thats more of a gesture than giving like 1% of your income. (Note I didnt actually do the math). Most athletes are jerks. Moss is only a jerk to the people that have jaded him in the past, he's not too fond of adults in general, but he's very nice to kids. Before alot of games during warm ups he'll take a kid from the crowd and carry them around to meet the other players. The media hates Moss cause he shuns them, and rightfully so because they turn; "Q: Does Cris Carter or Denny get you motivated to play. A: I don't need anyone to get me motivated. I play went I want to play." into Randy is a loafing asshole. Did you notice how they cut him off mid sentence to end his last interview? God only knows what he went on to say. The media loves Warren Sapp because he gives them good sound bites. It's a simple process really. And it's not that Randy is a victim, he's played his part too, but ESPN apologized and Joe Buck also backpeddled clarifying the reaction was over the goalpost part, not the moon part, and pretty much every sports writer (including those from GB) has shared Alex's view that Joe came off like a raving loony toon over what was no big deal. However that is like in the paper where there's a big front page story ripping someone apart unjustifiably then having the correction 3 days later on page G7. G-Sevooooooooon. You just hit G-8. If you like pia colada		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Matt - 3941 Posts 01/12/2005 @ 11:10:44 AM
If you tell me what ESPN Insider info you want, I'll send a copy of the page or post the relevent parts here.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/12/2005 @ 07:49:11 PM
According to a packer fan that was in the endzone Moss mooned all the fans thought it was hilarious. So that leaves Scott, Sarah, Joe Buck, and the people paid to fill time and talk about nothing as the handful of people that thought it was anything. I'm done beating the horse now.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/12/2005 @ 08:07:59 PM
I love these "photoshop" threads. Even the Packer fans would have to give props for some of these.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 01/12/2005 @ 08:18:32 PM
I guess the ref missed it.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - 3619 Posts 01/12/2005 @ 09:27:05 PM
I find it hard to give props to people who spend all their time playing with photoshop in the first place, but if you're going to do such things: A) Learn proper English. "When your best, just plain sucks" should not have a comma in it. It absolutely ruins the tiny amount of humor that it had to begin with. B)Be original. The one were the bench is empty and it says, "RESERVED FOR TALENTED PLAYERS" is funny. The ones were someone slapped a commercial slogan/catch phrase on a picture, not really funny at all. Also, leave Favre's drug addiction in the past. He has.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - I don't need to get steady I know just how I feel 01/12/2005 @ 09:29:10 PM
Now who's overreacting? Associated Press EDEN PRAIRIE, Minn. -- Fox Sports turned down Minnesota Vikings owner Red McCombs' request to remove play-by-play announcer Joe Buck from Sunday's divisional playoff game at Philadelphia over his sharp criticism of wide receiver Randy Moss. After Moss caught a touchdown pass in last weekend's win at Green Bay, the wide receiver celebrated in the end zone by pretending to pull down his pants and moon the Packers fans before briefly wiggling his back side against the goalpost. Buck immediately called it a "disgusting act." McCombs said that statement was out of line. A two-sentence news release issued by the team said McCombs felt Buck's comments "suggested a prejudice that surpassed objective reporting." Dan Bell, a Fox spokesman, said the network has "no intention whatsoever" of removing Buck. "We hope Mr. McCombs enjoys Joe's play-by-play call Sunday, because he'll be in the booth," Bell said. McCombs, whose office is in San Antonio, was not immediately available for further comment. Buck, during an interview on Sporting News Radio earlier this week, stood by his criticism. "I have nothing against Randy Moss," Buck said. "I don't even know the guy. I just know that with the history that he's had, and coming off that game at Washington, it was just stunning to see that." Moss drew plenty of negative scrutiny the week before for walking off the field in frustration while his teammates lined up for an onside kick with 2 seconds left in a 21-18 loss to the Redskins.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Super Chocolate Bear 01/12/2005 @ 09:50:37 PM
I think it was a long shot, but a fair request. They are supposed to not be biased and given the ass whipping Buck has taked from pretty much everyone who has ever seen a football game and can get on the internet, radio, or TV it would be hard for him to be objective a week later. A poll at fox sports supported removing him for the game, and was apparently statistically significant enough to not be effected by overzealous Viking fans.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	icbeast - 3619 Posts 01/12/2005 @ 11:27:39 PM
He's just doing play-by-play so I could honestly care less if he is biased, plus there is a difference between being biased and letting your bias affect your work. I fail to see how his overreaction to one after-play event in a game would warrent him being removed from a game the next week. He has taken a beating and I'm sure he'll remember that next time something like that happens. As far as the poll goes, I would support removing him from the game just because I don't like him and I don't like to listen to him in the first place, so was that factored in the poll results? Plus are any sports announcers totally unbiased and objective? They're fans just like anyone else. It's not like he spent the entire broadcast ripping Moss or the Vikings to pieces every time he had a chance. He overreacted, he knows it, move on.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - Pie Racist 01/13/2005 @ 07:07:43 PM
I dont care if he's there or not personally, I just don't think it's "over reacting" to make the request, just regular acting.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.