Jeremy - 9543 Posts 03/12/2008 @ 02:06:56 PM
Hmm. I don't know. I mean what does it mean to be unattended? Do parents take shifts watching their kids sleep? That kid who choked on something while the parent was a few feet away could choke with the mom in the car too. The unattended kid who died trying to follow its mom from the car across the street could just as easily have followed mom across the street at home. That said it should be something if you really do leave your kid unattended in a car, but where do you draw that line? Running into the store for 2 minutes might be better, in some instances, than shooting the breeze with the neighbor 10 feet away with your back to the car for 15 minutes. Cars are designed to be as sound proofed as possible and choking probably isn't all that loud to begin with. It's hard to legislate "shit happens" type stuff like this, so it tends to be "zero tolerance" based laws, when in reality everything really needs to be a case by case type thing.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.
Jeremy perfected this 4 times, last at 03/12/2008 7:12:34 pm

	Matt - Nutcan.com's MBL 03/12/2008 @ 06:55:40 PM
It's a bad interpretation. I don't think that you can fault the cop for seeing a kid alone in a car and being concerned, but once the situation was ascertained, that should have been the end of it. These kinds of laws are always going to depend on interpretation, but for me, I think that the general guideline should be that the child is negligently put into a situation where there is a reasonable chance of harm. Now, was there a chance that something bad could have happened to the kid in the time the mother was out of the car? Sure, but I would argue that it was probably unlikely that anything would happen, besides the random freak stuff that could happen to a kid any time a parent is not physically next to them for a few moments.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 03/12/2008 @ 07:04:04 PM
I guess I didn't spell it out, but put me in the "bad interpretation" camp, for the reasons I stated and Matt reiterated.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Alex - You've got to trust your instinct, and let go of regret 03/12/2008 @ 07:12:36 PM
Just found out that the case is not going to trial.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Matt - 3941 Posts 03/12/2008 @ 07:25:18 PM
From the article: "Yet statistics show thousands of children are injured and dozens die every year after being left unattended near or inside vehicles. "I am talking tens of thousands of people who leave their kids in the car for any period of time all around America," said Janette Fennell, founder and president of Kansas-based Kids and Cars. "People don't appreciate the dangers of leaving a child alone in the car." " Even though Ms. Fennell mentions "any period of time", I would be willing to bet that the main factor in the preventable cases is, in fact, the amount of time they are left alone.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Alex - Refactor Mercilessly 03/12/2008 @ 07:32:02 PM
I still don't like that something like this went anywhere at all. Many infants a year die in their cribs, should police be going door to door and checking on every child to make sure they are as safe as possible 100% of the time? Now I know why there are so many Americans in jail. Incidentaly, the guest on The Daily Show last night had a book that I might have to read.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 03/12/2008 @ 10:42:44 PM
Matt Wrote - 03/12/2008 @ 07:25:18 PM From the article: "Yet statistics show thousands of children are injured and dozens die every year after being left unattended near or inside vehicles. "I am talking tens of thousands of people who leave their kids in the car for any period of time all around America," said Janette Fennell, founder and president of Kansas-based Kids and Cars. "People don't appreciate the dangers of leaving a child alone in the car." " Even though Ms. Fennell mentions "any period of time", I would be willing to bet that the main factor in the preventable cases is, in fact, the amount of time they are left alone. I think the two most striking things are how the numbers "jump" (though "thousands" could mean "tens of thousands") when they came from the second person, and that that person heads an organization called "kids in cars." What isn't there an organization for? Who is funding these things? That guy's book need not apply here, one of the things you'd have to allow the government to do is police. That implies laws which imply legal system. So we'd still have this same mess. I could get on board with the small government. I'm just of the mind that, first, and he addressed this on the daily show, the people who've run on the "small government" ticket as of late want to expand it more than ever, and second, like with universal health care, if you're going to take our money, do something to help "us" a little more directly.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.
Jeremy screwed with this 2 times, last at 03/12/2008 10:43:58 pm

	Alex - I was too weak to give in Too strong to lose 03/13/2008 @ 12:00:22 AM
I'm not advocating anarchy or no police, I just think there are a lot of laws that shouldn't be laws, which I'm assuming is somewhere in that book. In my opinion, this particular case wasted the woman's time, the husband's time, the officer could've been doing some worthwhile, the police admin/DA's time or whoever handled the aftermath, the lawyer's time, etc. The government certainly doesn't seem to have shrunk any in the last 8 years, which I'm guessing was somewhere in Bush's campaign.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 03/13/2008 @ 12:57:21 AM
The problem is that, while all/most police aren't bad, the job does attract people who like power and, lets face it, it's sort of a "fall back job" to begin with, if you catch my meaning. The problem is that once the initial cop made a mountain out of a molehill everyone else likely has to give the case due diligence. I think all cops should have to work as partners. There are many reasons for why I feel that way. (Saftey, he-said-she-said situations, ect) I think situations like this are less likely to get out of hand if there are two officers there. The chances that two officers would want to "teach this woman a lesson" or whatever went on there is much less likely. I mean 30 feet isn't that far, you could leave your kid "unattended" and go 30 feet away in your house. At the same time, out front at a Walmart is pretty sketchy. I think if you're somewhere, or going far enough away, that you plan on locking the doors and arming the alarm, you might want to think twice.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.
Jeremy screwed with this 2 times, last at 03/13/2008 12:59:30 am

	Jon - 3443 Posts 03/13/2008 @ 12:49:44 PM
from the second article: "Talk about the case was intense, particularly online, where bloggers are weighing in on various message boards. " They must be talking about nutcan, right?		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Alex - I was too weak to give in Too strong to lose 03/13/2008 @ 01:04:10 PM
I don't think doubling up cops is even remotely feasible without a measurable increase in taxes and a likely diluting of the quality of the average cop (although your argument that the buddy system would prevent issues could make up for that). Due diligence should've been, "You arrested her for what?! Quick let her go and drop the charges before we get sued and publicly lambasted." You could be 1 foot away from a child and be totally ignoring them, whether they happen to be in a car or not. Thus, stupid law.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.
Alex screwed with this at 03/13/2008 1:16:33 pm

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 03/13/2008 @ 03:18:46 PM
Alex Wrote - 03/13/2008 @ 01:04:10 PM You could be 1 foot away from a child and be totally ignoring them, whether they happen to be in a car or not. Thus, stupid law. Well, it should be illegal to leave your kid in the car and go shopping for a few hours. There has to be a "line" somewhere. It's just a question if someone really needs to define that line or if we can make that call on a case by case basis.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - Resident Tech Support 03/13/2008 @ 07:47:52 PM
It's not football where holding is holding no matter what your reason for doing it is. Leaving a kid in a car can take on so many different characteristics, as has been pointed out. Lock a kid in a car in a hot parking lot in the summer for an hour, yes, you deserve a reprimand. You come back to your car after a few minutes when you went into a grocery store to pick up some milk for the kids' cereal? Maybe you should let that slide. You can't say it's a dumb law across the board because there are cases where it is legit. But the benefit of the doubt almost has to be with the parent.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Alex - 3619 Posts 03/13/2008 @ 09:19:10 PM
Well, that's where I'm not entirely sure how the law reads but I think it might get as specific as to say that it's illegal to leave a child in a car unattended. Just leave the law more generic like "don't leave a child in a dangerous situation". That can cover the hours in a hot summer car without having so many false positives because someone left a child in a car for 10 secs. Then leave it up to the DA/jury to make the judgment calls when need be. To tie that into the "line" thought, the tighter definition you try to make on the line itself, the greater the chance that the line goes to far and you end up with people getting busted when the lawmakers never intended the law to apply to that situation. If you leave it as more of a grey area, the more leeway there is for circumstantial considerations without having to not uphold the letter of the law.		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.
Alex screwed with this 2 times, last at 03/13/2008 9:24:04 pm

	Jeremy - 9543 Posts 03/13/2008 @ 10:29:33 PM
I love how we can turn general all around agreement into a debate of sorts.		Rate this comment Yours: Total: Rated 1 times.

	PackOne - 1528 Posts 03/14/2008 @ 07:33:51 PM
Jeremy Wrote - 03/13/2008 @ 10:29:33 PM I love how we can turn general all around agreement into a debate of sorts. That's the nutcan charm. Or is it? Or is it partially? Or maybe it isn't charm but rather ... ?		Rate this comment Yours: Rated 0 times.

	Scott - You're going to have to call your hardware guy. It's not a software issue. 03/14/2008 @ 08:39:11 PM
Jeremy Wrote - 03/13/2008 @ 10:29:33 PM I love how we can turn general all around agreement into a debate of sorts. I agree completely, but I'm sure I can find some way to absolutely disagree.		Rate this comment Yours: Total: Rated 1 times.